Comments on: 20. The Last Taboo? http://pwgd.org/gs/2006/04/29/the-last-taboo/ Better lives for our children's grandchildren Tue, 06 Jan 2009 06:22:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 by: Susan http://pwgd.org/gs/2006/04/29/the-last-taboo/#comment-340 Mon, 01 May 2006 15:34:08 +0000 http://pwgd.org/gs/2006/04/29/the-last-taboo/#comment-340 "the real enemies of Jews are those who debase the memory of Jewish suffering by equating principled opposition to Israel’s illegal and immoral policies with anti-Semitism.”" The people who are "crying antisemitism" genuinely believe it. They have over 2000 years of Jewish history to back them up. I may or may not agree with them, but I understand why they think the way they do. Where is your understanding and empathy? Does it only extend to Palestinians? It should be possible to debate the legality and morality of Israeli policy without calling those who disagree with you "enemies of the Jews". It is just as bad, if not worse, than "crying antisemitism. I would recommend that you read David Hirsh's "I hate the Jews should know better argument." “the real enemies of Jews are those who debase the memory of Jewish suffering by equating principled opposition to Israel’s illegal and immoral policies with anti-Semitism.””

The people who are “crying antisemitism” genuinely believe it. They have over 2000 years of Jewish history to back them up. I may or may not agree with them, but I understand why they think the way they do. Where is your understanding and empathy? Does it only extend to Palestinians? It should be possible to debate the legality and morality of Israeli policy without calling those who disagree with you “enemies of the Jews”. It is just as bad, if not worse, than “crying antisemitism.

I would recommend that you read David Hirsh’s “I hate the Jews should know better argument.”

]]> by: Susan http://pwgd.org/gs/2006/04/29/the-last-taboo/#comment-339 Mon, 01 May 2006 14:57:49 +0000 http://pwgd.org/gs/2006/04/29/the-last-taboo/#comment-339 Bill, I have to wonder if are you interested in really ending the occupation or are you interested in moral posturing and self-congratulatory self-righteousness? Israel has left Gaza and it wants to disengage from the West Bank. Poll after poll has shown that Israelis support a Palestinian state as long as their security can be guaranteed. Will a boycott help change the opinion of the average Israeli in the center? I doubt it. A boycott has nothing to do with Fisk blaming the war in Iraq on Israel, or Fisk assuming that the US government puts Israel's interests first. An antisemitic stereotype is an antisemitic stereotype. It doesn't matter if one is applying this stereotype to all Jews, Israelis, Zionists, or even just the Likud. It is just lying to say, "I'm only being critical of Israel." "American foreign policy is controlled by Israeli interests (not ‘Jews control America’)." Frankly, they are both equally antisemitic in different ways. They both employ classic antisemitic steretypes. This is not being critical of Israel, this is antisemitism. It is still accusing those who disagree with you of being more loyal to Israel than to America. I might also remind you that Arab American organizations endorsed Bush in 2000. I am suggesting that we should blame Arab Americans for Bush? No, they have the same rights as other Americans to enter the democratic process. Bill, I have to wonder if are you interested in really ending the occupation or are you interested in moral posturing and self-congratulatory self-righteousness?

Israel has left Gaza and it wants to disengage from the West Bank. Poll after poll has shown that Israelis support a Palestinian state as long as their security can be guaranteed. Will a boycott help change the opinion of the average Israeli in the center? I doubt it.

A boycott has nothing to do with Fisk blaming the war in Iraq on Israel, or Fisk assuming that the US government puts Israel’s interests first.

An antisemitic stereotype is an antisemitic stereotype. It doesn’t matter if one is applying this stereotype to all Jews, Israelis, Zionists, or even just the Likud. It is just lying to say, “I’m only being critical of Israel.”

“American foreign policy is controlled by Israeli interests (not ‘Jews control America’).” Frankly, they are both equally antisemitic in different ways. They both employ classic antisemitic steretypes. This is not being critical of Israel, this is antisemitism. It is still accusing those who disagree with you of being more loyal to Israel than to America.

I might also remind you that Arab American organizations endorsed Bush in 2000. I am suggesting that we should blame Arab Americans for Bush? No, they have the same rights as other Americans to enter the democratic process.

]]> by: Bill Templer http://pwgd.org/gs/2006/04/29/the-last-taboo/#comment-332 Mon, 01 May 2006 08:48:32 +0000 http://pwgd.org/gs/2006/04/29/the-last-taboo/#comment-332 ***Benny Morris' article in TNR that Susan mentions is unfortunate and does not deal in any way with the Lobby, just the authors' interpretation of Israeli historical fact. Morris (and his about-face) remains an enigma to many on the Israeli left, and to all Palestinians I know. *** The alternate reading of the Independent flag graphic that has angered a lot of people is that it says: American foreign policy is controlled by Israeli interests (not 'Jews control America'). Whether Fisk had anything to say about this graphic is questionable, but the editors at the Independent know what they are doing. Read the many many comments to David Hirsh's article, at the URL above, quite incredible, a complex thread on the Lobby and anti-semitism in itself. *** I've suggested it's good to keep the eye on the ball. Here an article by Norm Finkelstein on economic boycott reprinted in the current SYNTHESIS/REGENERATION (journal of the Greens/GPUSA, the far smaller more left Green formation stateside, not the Green Party US): http://www.greens.org/s-r/40/40-14.html I agree with and would emphasize his conclusion, and especially the last lines: "In a courageous initiative American-based Human Rights Watch recently called on the US government to reduce significantly its financial aid to Israel until Israel terminates its illegal policies in the West Bank. An economic boycott would seem to be an equally judicious undertaking. A nonviolent tactic the purpose of which is to achieve a just and lasting settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict cannot legitimately be called anti-Semitic. Indeed, the real enemies of Jews are those who debase the memory of Jewish suffering by equating principled opposition to Israel's illegal and immoral policies with anti-Semitism." The ball is "principled opposition to Israel's illegal and immoral policies."     Bill ***Benny Morris’ article in TNR that Susan mentions is unfortunate and does not deal in any way with the Lobby, just the authors’ interpretation of Israeli historical fact. Morris (and his about-face) remains an enigma to many on the Israeli left, and to all Palestinians I know.
*** The alternate reading of the Independent flag graphic that has angered a lot of people is that it says: American foreign policy is controlled by Israeli interests (not ‘Jews control America’). Whether Fisk had anything to say about this graphic is questionable, but the editors at the Independent know what they are doing. Read the many many comments to David Hirsh’s article, at the URL above, quite incredible, a complex thread on the Lobby and anti-semitism in itself.
*** I’ve suggested it’s good to keep the eye on the ball. Here an article by Norm Finkelstein on economic boycott reprinted in the current SYNTHESIS/REGENERATION (journal of the Greens/GPUSA, the far smaller more left Green formation stateside, not the Green Party US): www.greens.org/s-r/40/40-14.html
I agree with and would emphasize his conclusion, and especially the last lines: “In a courageous initiative American-based Human Rights Watch recently called on the US government to reduce significantly its financial aid to Israel until Israel terminates its illegal policies in the West Bank. An economic boycott would seem to be an equally judicious undertaking. A nonviolent tactic the purpose of which is to achieve a just and lasting settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict cannot legitimately be called anti-Semitic. Indeed, the real enemies of Jews are those who debase the memory of Jewish suffering by equating principled opposition to Israel’s illegal and immoral policies with anti-Semitism.” The ball is “principled opposition to Israel’s illegal and immoral policies.”     Bill

]]> by: Susan http://pwgd.org/gs/2006/04/29/the-last-taboo/#comment-325 Sun, 30 Apr 2006 22:56:37 +0000 http://pwgd.org/gs/2006/04/29/the-last-taboo/#comment-325 Sorry, for the triple posting, but have you read Benny Morris's article in the New Republic on www.tnr.com Sorry, for the triple posting, but have you read Benny Morris’s article in the New Republic on www.tnr.com

]]> by: Susan http://pwgd.org/gs/2006/04/29/the-last-taboo/#comment-324 Sun, 30 Apr 2006 22:55:28 +0000 http://pwgd.org/gs/2006/04/29/the-last-taboo/#comment-324 Al Gore opposed the invasion of Iraq and he is one of the most pro-Israel politicians in either party. If the Jewish lobby is so powerful why did George W. Bush win? Al Gore opposed the invasion of Iraq and he is one of the most pro-Israel politicians in either party. If the Jewish lobby is so powerful why did George W. Bush win?

]]> by: Susan http://pwgd.org/gs/2006/04/29/the-last-taboo/#comment-323 Sun, 30 Apr 2006 22:52:40 +0000 http://pwgd.org/gs/2006/04/29/the-last-taboo/#comment-323 I am on the left and I support a Palestinian state next to an Israeli state. I wonder how much longer I can remain on the left. As a Jew,I feel increasingly disappointd and betrayed by the left. I might be one the left, but that does not mean that I have to be a masochist. I suppose that to many on the left, I am a perfect trifecta of evil. I am an American, a Jew, and a Zionist. For all of America's problems there isn't a single country in Europe, including the UK that I would want to live in. I am on the left and I support a Palestinian state next to an Israeli state.

I wonder how much longer I can remain on the left. As a Jew,I feel increasingly disappointd and betrayed by the left. I might be one the left, but that does not mean that I have to be a masochist.

I suppose that to many on the left, I am a perfect trifecta of evil. I am an American, a Jew, and a Zionist. For all of America’s problems there isn’t a single country in Europe, including the UK that I would want to live in.

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